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Conducting an experiment today ... hoping it draws honest responses.
I am going to say type two words. In response to the two words you'll need to honestly reflect the first words that came to your mind.
Here we go.
What are the first things that first pop into your head when I say-
"the church" ?
When I did this exercise myself I admit that "fakers" and "liars" are words that pop up for me. When I asked Troy he said, "judgment".
I love Jesus, I am trying to live a life seeking after him even though I jack it up fairly regularly. I am married to a man that has spent the last 15 years coming to know Jesus without all the strings attached to his former understanding. We think of ourselves and our faith very much in terms of "we were saved, we are currently being made new, currently being saved, and we will be saved".
We confess that thinking of and seeing the church in a positive way has been challenging for us in our adult lives. We've felt rebellious and angry toward the church, toward Christians. I admit that at times I've been unfair and immature in my response to pain caused by 'the church' and by other Christians.
The church I spent a lot of my youth attending was pastored by a pedophile. When it finally came out that he was abusing boys there were people who wanted to cover it up. He was a 20+ year pastor that had destroyed many lives before it all blew up and everyone found out. The response of a handful of people and that pastor was mind-boggling and dishonest. I know my knee-jerk reaction and thoughts stem from my experiences at that church.
Troy grew up filled with fear about what would happen if he stepped out of bounds. He was taught that salvation had to be earned and maintained - legalism prevailed." Certain things made him "good" other things made him "bad". Mostly he lived feeling bad. When we first met and began dating he suffered from occasional panic attacks that were based on his struggle to find peace with himself as he began to love and know Jesus outside of the box in which he had always lived.
Because we're a jacked-up fallen mess of humanity we can always count on the fact that we will let each other down and say and do hurtful things. Spiritual abuse is commonplace. The ways in which Christians abuse and judge each other can be mind-numbing and the fact that so many reject our faith and mock us shouldn't surprise us based on our own behavior and judgement of one another. Using God to control, shame, manipulate, or dominate people or arguments is called spiritual abuse, and it's not cool. Jesus didn't win arguments or change minds that way. I'm thinking we shouldn't either.
Making giant sweeping statements about "the church" based on our personal experiences isn't really fair. However, it seems to us that a lot of believers (and of course non-believers) have similar negative memories, images and thoughts. I don't know where others in our generation fall, I would venture to guess a lot of us are uncomfortable with the things "the church" has done in our own history, let alone hundreds of years ago.
It is totally up to us to change this. It is totally up to us to "be the church" we wish the church of our past had been. Our bitterness and rejection won't change lives, but our participation and forgiveness could. (writing this to myself as much or more than to you)
I listened to the sermon below while I ran Monday. I don't post sermons often, I recognize that I have no idea who reads and what biases and distrust readers may bring. I don't think of Troy or I as in your face kind-of-people. We're more interested in just sharing the ways the love and forgiveness of Jesus in our own lives has compelled us to try to love a little better ourselves.
With that said, please know I wouldn't post any old sermon and ask you to consider listening to it. If you struggle to let go of past hurt or even refuse to go into any church setting at all because of your history with the church, I think you'll find some true and convicting things here. If there is any way you can listen to it start to finish, I'd encourage you to do so. Listening to only the first half wouldn't give you the core message, so only listen if you can give up the full 49 minutes. You'll also need to be willing to overlook the giant head of puffy hair Greg is sporting. That was no issue for us, we stare at ridiculously large John McHoul hair every day.
Click this link for options to listen or download.
This is an MP3 link.
Attempting to embed video below as well ...
We found it helped us confirm that "opting out isn't an option" (as much as we tried that avenue for many years, we kinda always knew it was a cop-out) and it helped us see Christ and His Church in another way. My cynicism and disgust over things we've experienced doesn't draw anyone to Jesus or change anything.
It is a big ole mess, but God is kinda sorta really awesome at working in the middle of our big messes.
I am going to
Here we go.
What are the first things that first pop into your head when I say-
"the church" ?
When I did this exercise myself I admit that "fakers" and "liars" are words that pop up for me. When I asked Troy he said, "judgment".
I love Jesus, I am trying to live a life seeking after him even though I jack it up fairly regularly. I am married to a man that has spent the last 15 years coming to know Jesus without all the strings attached to his former understanding. We think of ourselves and our faith very much in terms of "we were saved, we are currently being made new, currently being saved, and we will be saved".
The church I spent a lot of my youth attending was pastored by a pedophile. When it finally came out that he was abusing boys there were people who wanted to cover it up. He was a 20+ year pastor that had destroyed many lives before it all blew up and everyone found out. The response of a handful of people and that pastor was mind-boggling and dishonest. I know my knee-jerk reaction and thoughts stem from my experiences at that church.
Troy grew up filled with fear about what would happen if he stepped out of bounds. He was taught that salvation had to be earned and maintained - legalism prevailed." Certain things made him "good" other things made him "bad". Mostly he lived feeling bad. When we first met and began dating he suffered from occasional panic attacks that were based on his struggle to find peace with himself as he began to love and know Jesus outside of the box in which he had always lived.
Because we're a jacked-up fallen mess of humanity we can always count on the fact that we will let each other down and say and do hurtful things. Spiritual abuse is commonplace. The ways in which Christians abuse and judge each other can be mind-numbing and the fact that so many reject our faith and mock us shouldn't surprise us based on our own behavior and judgement of one another. Using God to control, shame, manipulate, or dominate people or arguments is called spiritual abuse, and it's not cool. Jesus didn't win arguments or change minds that way. I'm thinking we shouldn't either.
Making giant sweeping statements about "the church" based on our personal experiences isn't really fair. However, it seems to us that a lot of believers (and of course non-believers) have similar negative memories, images and thoughts. I don't know where others in our generation fall, I would venture to guess a lot of us are uncomfortable with the things "the church" has done in our own history, let alone hundreds of years ago.
I listened to the sermon below while I ran Monday. I don't post sermons often, I recognize that I have no idea who reads and what biases and distrust readers may bring. I don't think of Troy or I as in your face kind-of-people. We're more interested in just sharing the ways the love and forgiveness of Jesus in our own lives has compelled us to try to love a little better ourselves.
With that said, please know I wouldn't post any old sermon and ask you to consider listening to it. If you struggle to let go of past hurt or even refuse to go into any church setting at all because of your history with the church, I think you'll find some true and convicting things here. If there is any way you can listen to it start to finish, I'd encourage you to do so. Listening to only the first half wouldn't give you the core message, so only listen if you can give up the full 49 minutes. You'll also need to be willing to overlook the giant head of puffy hair Greg is sporting. That was no issue for us, we stare at ridiculously large John McHoul hair every day.
Click this link for options to listen or download.
This is an MP3 link.
Attempting to embed video below as well ...
We found it helped us confirm that "opting out isn't an option" (as much as we tried that avenue for many years, we kinda always knew it was a cop-out) and it helped us see Christ and His Church in another way. My cynicism and disgust over things we've experienced doesn't draw anyone to Jesus or change anything.
It is a big ole mess, but God is kinda sorta really awesome at working in the middle of our big messes.
- Clip Topics – Controversial Issues, Defense of Christian Faith, Hope
- January 15, 2012
The Church is the body and bride of Christ. And while Paul says that we are holy in Christ’s sight, we don’t always act like it. In this sermon, Greg talks about how difficult it is to hope in the Church, and how we can still strive to be the Bride of Christ.
32 comments:
Complicated fear
Thanks for this post. It mirrors some of the thoughts and discussions we have been having in our home lately.
Strangly, for me, the first thing that came to mind when you said "the church" was the Church. Meaning every christian who lives in every country, against the backdrop of every one who had ever lived and ever will live. My people. The ones I fight alongside, toil with, sit with, cry with, hope with. I'm not sure how I got here. I too have been damaged by the church.
"Well intentioned"
Although having been raised Catholic, I also quickly thought of "the building" as in "where God lives & we visit him every Saturday for confession, & every Sunday for Mass". Thankfully I have been educated that WE are the church and as much of a mess as we all are, I know we're all in this struggle together. We are blessed that our local church is really shaking things up; could anyone have imagined a 40+ year old white-church in "THE OC" having a black worship leader, a mixed race choir (black, white, latino, & asian) and a congregation that has become probably 30-40% people of color? And brothers & sisters in Christ loving one another? We are greatly blessed to be challenging "the most segregated hour in America" and striving to share the Gospel with everyone, while truly being a hospital for "sick & hurting" people. And also trying to eliminate the trappings of "religion". Yet we still have many who fall into that trap of "caring too much but knowing too little"...
Family.
For me the church is such a clear metaphor for my own family. It is where I have been loved best and worst in my life. There are the creepy uncles and manipulative aunts who you wish would stop coming to Christmas dinner. The cousins and siblings that are your best friends- the ones you argue with and compete with and love and hate at the same time. The domineering parents who don't always understand you, but always want the best for you and love you no matter what. The grandparents that dote on you and love you like only grandmas and grandpas can. And maybe there is another set of grandparents who will just never approve of you - no matter what you believe and do.
That's the best way I can think of to describe the church. One big, complicated family.
Echo of Eve - that is exactly what came to my head. The Church. As in "Christ's people". Excellent discussion, Tara...thanks.
"fantastic grace"
and
"love it"
For the past 8 years my husband, my kids, and I have attended North Point Community Church (northpoint.org). The experiences here have led me to the two-word descriptions above. It's all about a personal relationship with Jeaus and the grace that comes from knowing Him personally. The scriptures are taught and aptly applied to life. Checkout the experience online each week at northpointonline.tv (Sundays live 9am and 11am ET with a rebroadcast Sundays at 2, 6, and 10, and on Wednesdays at 8pm ET.
BTW-I loved the post you all linked to written by your friend Jen about not making decisions from a place of fear. It spoke to me. Thanks!
Blessings,
Melissa S.
PS - I haven't always held these two words as my descriptors...I was raised in a baptist congregation complete with yelling, fear, and condemnation.
I have two thoughts that come right after each other when you say "the church." One is the institutional bodies that make up "the church." Re: I am Episcopalian, so, TEC, or the Baptist church, the Presbyterians, Anglicans, etc..
The other thought is influenced by Shaine Claiborne and his ilk, as well as the Nicene Creed -- "we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church." For me, the word to focus on is "catholic" as in the universal church. Not only are the institutional bodies a part of it, but also we individuals. Y'all, me, Sara Groves (who is playing in my speakers), all the wonderful Haitians that y'all are blessed to work with, the beautiful Palestinians that I pray I get to work with (not evangelize to, work *with*..) you know, ALL of us. We are HIS church.
I wasn't raised in any church, well - academia, which I consider to be a church. I was raised rather repulsed from church, because I had Jerry Falwell 2.5 hours from me and Pat Robertson 5 hours from me both preaching things that went against all that I was taught growing up. Sorry if that offends you - but I don't like those two, I respect them as fellow children of God, but I don't necessarily like what they say. I denied my own belief in Christianity until I got to Utah. I joined the Mormons, went to Palestine, realized they were wrong and am an Episcopalian. I found people that felt about the world as I do, plus the TEC is the church my beloved father was raised in.
I'm grateful for both churches - the institutional bodies, and the greater universal church. I love the Episcopal liturgy. I feel closer to God because of it. I also love singing along to Sara Groves (and Audrey Assad) and talking about how Jesus loves everyone with my favorite little Mormons. I feel closer to God because of that too.
I'm incredibly grateful for the people I've found in my faith search. Those I get to interact with in person encourage me, I encourage them. Those who's words I just read (y'all's) give me hope of God's presence with the broken - no matter what that broken looks like. I get to be challenged. My faith grows. I need my faith to grow because I need God and I need His presence in my very broken life.
-Brooke, in Logan, UT
Such a loaded question... for me, first thoughts of "the church" = legalistic religion. Thankfully, not because of my current church family, but because of my past experiences and because of those "Christians" who tend to make the news the most often. It makes me not want to identify myself as a "Christian" but rather a Christ follower, or Talmid (disciple to Christ).
I am grateful it is all about Jesus, and I am thankful beyond words that my pastor consistently challenges us to be like Jesus and not get caught up in religious rules but rather focus on a relationship with Him and the radical change that brings into our lives. Yes, as imperfect people will will always blow it and it will be messy. However, when we are surrounded by people who get it and who are also striving to be like Jesus and give our mess over to Him, I think we have the best chance of that showing in our lives. Which is the best chance for others to see that even though we are still messy, there is something different in our mess and allows us to point to Jesus.
Thank you for continually tackling the hard stuff and transparently and authentically sharing.
ps - can you please link to the message in the comment section? I can't see the sermon link, and have tried on 3 computers. Thanks!
Ego Mania
Thanks for sharing, super excited to watch :) I will now commence sending my children outside with snacks
My bias against the American Christian sub-culture seems to grow by the day. Trendy communicators who are more CEO than shepherd of the flock. And if some sheep leave, no biggie because we'll just replace them with other sheep who come to see our snappy Sunday morning presentations. It's all about nickels and noses. Or at least it is in many places.
And don't even get me started on all the tele-heretics making money hand over fist pimping God's word for their own gain.
Christian bookstores aren't really all that different than Barnes & Noble. Tons of technique books and self-help books (isn't "Christian self-help book" an oxymoron???) Three easy steps to this and the ABC's of that. I guess it makes sense from a marketing standpoint. There's a reason Bonhoeffer's "Cost of Discipleship" isn't on the front table at Mardell. Books that begin with "When Christ calls a man He bids him come and die" aren't going to be too popular.
In church we've reduced the Christian life down to a formula. Because formulas sell. And then we wonder why it comes up short in those moments of crisis when life kicks us in the teeth. Sooner or later we have to own our theology. That's usually when we find out too late that the formulas don't work.
And yet it's the church that God chooses to use. I don't understand it. Based on a lot of what I see, I'd farm the job out to a different group. But we are the church, the whole big dysfunctional bunch of us, self included. God chooses to use the church. So we stay and learn to forgive and love and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. And hopefully with a vulnerability that allows God to speak His truth into our lives.
Like "echo of eve' raised catholic 'the church' instantly is 'the building'. It isn't 'right'. I know there is more to it... I'm still finding my way too.
"self-important"
Love this post.
Can anyone else confirm if the embedded video does not work? I attempted to fix that but also put a link above it to the site of the sermon itself.
That link is:
http://whchurch.org/sermons-media/sermon/the-bridezilla-of-christ
To all:
Hey, we really appreciate your feedback. SO interesting to read your responses and thoughts. Quitting church (and especially trusting the community of church goers) all together was our first idea ... but there has to be a better response - something more redemptive.
My response depends on the question you're asking. If you mean "the church" lower-case, organization... my response is "man made" - with all the flaws, abuses, and powerplays those two words carry with them. But if you mean "the Church" that Jesus talks about - His Bride, Beloved, Redeemed... my response is "extended family."
My history with the lower-case church has been long and full of legalism, condemnation, and bondage (even while my husband was a paid minister therein, or maybe *because* he was). But, once freed of that bondage, I have learned that the Church is so much bigger than any manmade organization can encompass. It is founded on redemption, adoption, and love that covers a multitude of sins. It exists within and across the boundaries of "churched" or "unchurched" and certainly across denominational bounds.
When my husband and I left vocational ministry, there were many hurts that had to be addressed. Much abuse had occurred. But with that healing came the ability to identify the Church as those bought with a price, part of my family, and therefore to be treated as such and leave it at that. Some of my extended family members meet regularly at specific locations every week; others meet more infrequently or not in a preplanned manner at all - just letting life take its course and allowing the Spirit to move among us whenever we are together. I am among those who take a less structured approach to when/how we meet; I do not attend regular church organizational meetings. But I have regular interaction with brothers and sisters and aunts and uncles and grandparents in the faith through daily life and interaction. And, thankfully, I have finally come to the place of being able to say that although I don't seek out the organization, I'm also not opposed to its existence (specific practices I still have issues with and I do still tend to be skeptical of its motives) or anyone who participates with it. It's been a long road and I'm still learning what it means to be in the Church.
Longwinded,I know. It's a loaded question! :) And no, I can't get the link to work, either.
"the church" = imperfect humans
Weirdness -- the embedded video works fine for us so I don't know what the issue is ... there are links to get to it other ways within the post now too.
sorry!
"man made"
I haven't been specifically hurt by the church but after years of living a good life in good churches with good intentions, I found it all completely inadequate when my marriage was in sudden, deep crisis. I think I finally became a true follower, a real Christian, after scream crying to God from a puddle of tears on many a night. It's where I learned to trust and where I found my only hope...then healing...and forgiveness.
I've been writing about this much lately. I can't balance well so much man-made tradition and feel-good community when it really is not what Jesus says to do. All that said, I'm more aware how lousy a sinner I am, and how much I need Jesus than ever before.
I will listen to the sermon. Perhaps there is a reason for me that you post it now.
Love from my part of the world!
Kristie F.
I've been reading your blog for quite some time, but have never commented. But this post hit really close to home. Your story is incredibly similar to mine, except in my case, I was one of the ones being abused. The first two words I thought of were "pastors" and "abuse." I too have had thoughts of leaving the church altogether, and yet, I have also been blessed lately with a church that has shown me what the church is really supposed to look like (although at times I don't trust even them). I guess what I'm saying is, thanks for writing this. I can definitely relate.
the church = a hospital for sinners.
The church = My family.
It wasn't always this way...but moving out of a mega-church where we would not be noticed if we slept in on Sunday morning to a small, thriving, love-filled congregation was key for us. They love us, they want to know us, and they miss us if we are not there. Most importantly, we are taught without regard to trends or fear of offending someone. We are lovingly taught straight out of the Bible...all of it. It is such a gift.
"Jacked up".
The link is working fine here in CA.
Also, after pausing for a moment I think "The hope of the world". One of our pastors is always saying "the local church is the hope of the world". I'm not sure if I believe him, but it's interesting that came up in response to this question. :)
A (historic) building and opression
But "faith" and "social conscience without judgement"
could also be it. But nicer if it didn't have to rest on religious belief though.
Of course churches today (all over the world) are filled with imperfect/rebellion/sin! Look at who they are made of... people! We all sin. We all fall short. Churches are full of people that recognize their need of Jesus. They are full of people in need of help. Jesus provides and works through all kinds of messed up people. Also, I totally agree that opting out is not the answer. We are called to put aside anything that hinders... for some the hurt they experienced from church is what is hindering them...
honestly, our pastor teaching and our church building (my daughter yells "my church" when she sees it)
then, I think about people, friends
then, I think about "institutions" because of the "the" in the phrase
then, I think about heaven and those I know there already
I don't have time to listen to the sermon; I'd love to but don't know when it will happen. But I really appreciate how you are looking at how your past experiences with the church are coloring your current expectations and feelings about the church and others. That's not something I think people always do. The reality is our past experiences often cause our knee jerk reactions to jerk one way or the other and the church is no exception. For me, the church I grew up in was a small rural church where everyone was related which created a lot of dysfunction. It culminated when a minister was being asked to leave and ended up in a fight with two teenage boys and their grandfather; the minister left that fight with two broken legs. After that, my folks left that church and ended up in another church which also has dysfunction, where I often hear stories of crazy things that make me think "that must make God sad." That said, my husband and I have been blessed with essentially one church in our marriage and it has been a good one, one that is authentic and full of people who love each other. So my first thought was along the lines of family. But I also recognize how painfully flawed the church is. And I know that even in our current situation, it can take but one or two situations for the situation to quickly feel broken.
"The church" makes me start thinking of the various people I know in the church I go to - some friends, some not.
Now if your chosen word had been "God" - *then* I'd have been thinking "judgement".
Sadly, my two words are political bologna. Great post though, and am saving the sermon!
I'm like Echo of Eve. When I hear "the church" I think of the church universal, all Christians everywhere, Jesus' Bride whom he loved enough to die for, my brethren, His Body, the real purpose of universe (think about it) and perhaps unlike her (I don't know) I feel love, intense, fierce love. Fierce beccause I know the church isn't perfect. But I know a perfect God found dying to be worth gaining her. A lot of people claim to have a heart to bring Jesus to the lost but seem to dislike the church. But bringing JEsus to the lost is saying "Come. Be part of the Church." Because every believer is the Church. The Spirit and the Bride say Come and all that.
It is what I ran the hell away from.
Then the Lord plopped me back in the middle of suburban white America and said, "watch me redeem this for you my daughter. Let me show you how my Spirit is moving even here"
I am glad to read many have no negative feelings toward the church -- Troy and I know we're pretty jaded and cynical and we're working on it.
I would so like to know which way you all read the sign "We love hurting people".... I of COURSE read it the negative way "we love hurting people" as in, we love to hurt people. Maybe that is the cynicism test right there. FAIL Tara!
This was REALLY interesting to read and think about!!!!! The church for me means a place full of people who are sinners just trying to do their best to love and serve Jesus. Sometimes we fail, MISERABLY, but He picks us all back up again and we try again. Since the video that your sweet Paige posted, I am truly beginning to see my church for what it is....a hospital for sick people. And for that I am greatful. I didn't become a Christian until I was 23 and am still at the same church. It is a very sweet place were we all know that we are just steaming bags of poo without Jesus. All we want is less of us and more of Him. Are there some Pharasees in the mix? I am sure, heck sometimes, I am probably one of them!!!!!!!!!! My experience has been a good one. BUT, I do not doubt that when our Jesus comes back, He will show us the areas where we TOTALLY dropped the ball, and where we did not shine His light. SO thankful for His grace! And so greatful for how you make us all think Tara Livesay!!!!!!! I know that in the ministry I am in, I can do better, and I need to take a look at how I am serving and if I am doing it as well as Jesus wants me to! Hugs!
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